Ravana
Registered User
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: Oulu, Finland
|
|
 Back to top |
|
 |
TNK / ATK project
Registered User
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: Village-Neuf, France (Dont's search on the map, it's tiny...)
|
 Posted: Sun Dec 03 2006 22:30
|
 |
| Ravana wrote: |
Yeah I didn't read the question all that well. Anyways, would that kind of an analyzer be so useful? |
Yes !!!
| Ravana wrote: |
Why? Can't you achieve the same by analyzing tracks separately? |
You can, but it's less optimal.
Imagine such a tool (image edited from Voxengo Span) :
You could see the frequency response of 2 tracks you assume (and you assume right in the given exemple!) clashing with each other. With such a tool, you could directly see where it clashes (in strong frequencies or lower ones ?), what part of the frequency image is important in which track & so on...
Of course, you can do this by analyzing tracks separately, but you have to remember what was where & stuff like this.
Ideally such a tool would also allow you to "render" your track to create an average frequency use of each track, allowing you to see what frequencies are important in which track.
Even more ideally, that tool would have a built in low pass, hi-pass, band pass and band reject (or a paragraphic equalizer) for every channel, allowing you to cut or boost the frequencies while looking at the frequency response curves, optimizing your tracks.
Even much more ideally, it would allow you to "sculpt" the frequency response of each track. Visual and audio data gives better and more accurate results than just using one's ears to guess where the frequency clashes happen.
It would also be nice to have a feature to simulate crappy sound equipment on good ones (actually, for the music, the other way round would be better, but that sounds like something impossible to do), so that you can check your "compatibility" with such low end equipment much more people than you think use (guess how much bass your cellphone has!). |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ravana
Registered User
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: Oulu, Finland
|
Posted: Mon Dec 04 2006 07:16
|
|
Well okay, since you put it THAT way 
I was just thinking that how does one identify those frequency clashes? Okay even I can at times hear the clash of, say, kick and bass. But I doubt I will recognize the clashes of some mid-range frequencies. And I would assume my pieces are full of such clashes (since they are full of low-mid to mid stuff), but still no one has ever mentioned anything. When adding an instrument I sometimes hear it just sounds weird and not right at some notes, I guess that's it? But mostly to me this would seem like the use of compressor; we can use it, so we use it.
(Yeah I admit, I know nothing.) |
http://www.mikseri.net/artists/thejollynekromanseri.51046.php
http://www.mikseri.net/artists/bewaretheconstruct.62202.php
MT source files available if requested (maybe) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TNK / ATK project
Registered User
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: Village-Neuf, France (Dont's search on the map, it's tiny...)
|
Posted: Mon Dec 04 2006 22:34
|
|
| Ravana wrote: | Well okay, since you put it THAT way
I was just thinking that how does one identify those frequency clashes? |
When you hear some instruments being unclear together, then you've got a frequency clash. Some instruments sound extremely well alone, but mixed with others who sometimes sound as good, the whole stuff gets muddy : You've got a frequency clash!
That's in fact more a sound engeneer problem than a composer's one, but as on MT we are both composers and sound engeneers...
| Ravana wrote: | | Okay even I can at times hear the clash of, say, kick and bass. But I doubt I will recognize the clashes of some mid-range frequencies. And I would assume my pieces are full of such clashes (since they are full of low-mid to mid stuff), but still no one has ever mentioned anything. |
Because - and that's sad - tracked music or unsigned music is considered as amateur one, and therefore technical drawbacks are often considered by people as obvious unexperience, but as they consider trackers as amateurs, they do not blame us for unexperience.
Note : this doesn't mean we're all unexperienced amateurs !
For exemple, Magnar, the one who started that topic : I had his stuff listened by people in the music industry I know, people who licensed stuff to companies like Universal Music or Warner, and believe me, their sound is often far below the quality of Magnar's sound.
| Ravana wrote: | When adding an instrument I sometimes hear it just sounds weird and not right at some notes, I guess that's it? But mostly to me this would seem like the use of compressor; we can use it, so we use it.
|
It can sound like this, but basically, you hear frequency clashes when the mix becomes unclear, when you are not able to recognize each instrument distinctly anymore.
This is not such a burning hot issue as long as you stick to purely instrumental electronic music as the sounds one uses in such music are creations, and not imitation / playback of "real life" sound. Therefore, frequency clashes can even create interesting FXs in one's music.
But when some instruments - or other audio elements like a voice for exemple - have to be clearly identified (and understood for the vocal example), better have the least frequency clashes you can get.
Unexperienced mixers tend to push up the elements they do not hear as good anymore once more elements come in, and sometimes it's the right thing to do... but in most case, if adding stuff gets the whole stuff muddy, and if some tracks are not as clear anymore, it's because you've got a frequency clash somewhere (and there's where the tool I and probably Magnar dream of would definitely come handy!) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mephi
User
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: oslo, norway
|
Posted: Fri Dec 15 2006 01:51
|
|
The thing with that "dreamtool" you are speaking of is kinda dangerous if you see it my way. people will trust that thing blindly and im some(or probably most) cases there will be freqholes, and that sounds just as bad as a clash .. what i think mangar should do is to first stop sampling synths.. nowdays you find very good synths that emulate the originals very good (even tho you really should change the synths to a synth that gives a more 2006 sound)! secondly: change the drumkits.. unless you want your drums to sound that way, you got to change them (use "drumkits from hell" takes about 6 gigabytes.. you'll find it at your local torrentshop or something). thirdly you should use a mulicompressor. its a very nice tool for mastering a tracks and making your mix pump and sound professional.
good tips for synth: apply a chorus and set the wet/dry mix to baout 30-40% and play with the chorus.. you are looking for that "multidetuned-synth" sound.
happy mixing!
note: i'm not an Madtracker user as I think that all tracker-guis are messy (i used to track, a couple of years ago). www.myspace.com/3rdbeat |
meh = Aximal
http://home.no/aximal |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MagnarTBL
Registered User
Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Ronneby, Sweden
|
Posted: Fri Dec 15 2006 10:34
|
|
Hehehe.. 10 years ago, it was just about tracking a song with some samples you got from friends or recorded of the instruments you had at hand.
Today, it is all about the soundpicture. Using the right chain of effects on each track and then the mastering itself... Kinda kills the production enjoyment, but again.. Getting all of that right is what is needed to succeed. 
The big difference is also the WEB, there is so much to read about how others succeed with their top-notch sound pictures etc.
Personally, I would really like to have a better tool for frequence analyzing. I hate the work of exporting all the tracks, and it just kills the joy of sitting there and analyze the whole crap while composing. And I really hate to compose something that isn't what it should sound like in the end... I want the "end result" on the road as I compose.
I've learned a lot of how to use computer effects the last year, and I've also started to move to "working" vst plugs, as in the start I had loads that didnt work that well (computer freeze etc)... and I kinda got sad by it and dropped my composing in lack of inspiration
Fortunately, all of this is in constantly change it seems. Most of the developers of the vst plugins are making them more stable nowadays than for 2 years ago etc.. At least, that is how I feel it.
I am still drawn to my HW instead of my SW for multitimbal instruments etc... As SW synths still eats up my dualcore 4.8GHz AMD CPU resources quite fast when you attach some compression, eq on tracks + de-ess, multicompress, etc on master... But all in all, I'm getting forward.
Regardless, I also think many of you refer to a "2006" sound more as electronic music. Maybe because many of you are preferable dealing with making electronic music instead of the "radio commercial" pop/rock - with more accustic feels in it. I prefer a real drum mic'd up recorded sequence instead of a fixed static sampled snare from a drumkit, but again... It is all about resources, and I still do not have my personal drummer positioned in the garage when I need him at 1am during the night. So, I am trying out some new drum plugs (Native Instruments) and see how it works on SW level instead of using my old roland+boss drum machines+korg trinity synth drumsets etc. Which also is quite large drum sample "libraries" with multi samples etc defined on touch levels.
I am still also very splitted in the usage of Madtracker and Cakewalk. At some point I find Madtracker better to work in, in others I like Cakewalk better. The later for real time midi recording when I actually play the sequences on the piano/synths. And later can adjust that. In Madtracker, I find it easier to just Soundforge sample the whole sequence when I play, but then I lose the ability to edit and put effects on it later on... I guess this is something I need to decide about quite soon tho - maybe a mixture of the two worlds would work.. But I havent really tried that yet.
All in all... progress is at hand. My latests productions are improving, and I am really thankful for all the response you all gave me on this thread.
Big thanks!
/M |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Page 2 of 2 |
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous 1, 2 |
|
Log in
Profile
FAQ
